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Travis Payne
Travis Payne, choreographer, Cinematica Generica interview (October 28, 2009)
Harrison J. Pierce (Cinematica Generica): In [“This Is It”], you are often seen working side by side with Michael. Did you always work together so closely?
Travis Payne: We were always that close knit. You just sort of gravitate to Michael. You just want to be near him and he was so welcoming and open and loving that it was very easy to be. He made himself available. Any walls he had went up around him because people didn’t allow him to have a normal existence. But once he was in his own space he was just a guy in love with his art.
CG: What were the first couple of tour rehearsals like? Was Michael confident or nervous?
Payne: I asked him straight out, “Do you get nervous?” and he goes “No.” I go, “Really?” and he goes, “If you get nervous, then it starts to trickle throughout the camp and then you’ve got a bunch of nervous soldiers and you’ll never win the war that way.” I was like, “Okay, then, we don’t get nervous” [laughs]. I have to remember that when I was younger it was easier for me to do stuff because there was less fear and hesitation because you’re not planning to plan to plan. You just sort of do it. And that’s the way he was.
CG: How do you think Michael looked during the tour rehearsals?
Payne: I think he was in great shape. Clearly he was a seasoned professional – you know, he was fifty-years-old – but there’s also many others in his peer group who are doing it successfully. As a choreographer and a dancer, it was great to be in the room with him every day. As an associate director, it was great to have conversations with him and contribute conceptually to the tour. As an associate producer of the movie, I felt a great responsibility and honor in telling the story of his last creative process.
CG: How come we don’t see Michael perform the “moonwalk” in the film?
Payne: Well, things like the “moonwalk” are things he’s mastered. His iconic signature steps – like spins and cycles – those are just in his body. He doesn’t need to rehearse them, just like an opera singer doesn’t need to hit the high notes during rehearsal. Michael was too busy listening to his music, doing his soundcheck, teaching people around him, communicating what he expected and needed from them in order to give his best performance possible. What you see in the film is not a full performance. But for people to have a glimpse into his last creative endeavor, I think, is a blessing. It will answer a lot of questions people have and give people their hero back for a little while. I’m glad the initial response has been great.
CG: Was there a musical number you were most excited to choreograph?
Payne: I love them all. The first thing I ever choreographed with Michael was “Dangerous” in 1993, but the latest was “The Drill,” an entirely new piece with all new choreography that you see in the film. It’s the piece that falls between “Jam” and “They Don’t Care About Us.”
CG: How has your creative collaboration with Michael changed over the years?
Payne: I was one of his dancers in 1993 and then I became his choreographer and partner in 1994. Often times, Michael would call me at three in the morning just because, when connected with his higher power, he would get ideas. He would call and say, “I know how we do this. We don’t need to do this song because we just did that song. And that song really counts for two songs. And you take that out and…” He was always crafting, always creating. On this project, he was in the midst of an album and raising his children, so a phone call seemed logical to me. Everyone’s asleep, phones aren’t ringing. We could both concentrate and chat for a while and laugh and sort of recap the day. It’s very hard just to hit that off switch when you’ve had the kind of thrilling days we had working on this tour. He was always working and it inspired us to work harder and better.
CG: How would you like people to remember Michael as an artist and as a man?
Payne: I would love for people to remember Michael for his caring. He cared so deeply about so many different people in the world, many of whom he didn’t even know. He just knew someone somewhere was suffering and that was enough for him to be concerned. People know of his charitable contributions, but I don’t know that people realize he still holds the record for most charitable contributions by any celebrity or normal person. I think he should be remembered as a gentle giant. Immensely talented but he never took credit for his talent. He said, “I’m a vessel. I know there’s something bigger than me. I just give people the messages.” He was very much that way all the time. I think people often mistook his kindness for weakness and assumed that he was not in control of his life, but he was. And he was responsible for the lives of his children. He was a loving father and they were fiercely loyal and they traveled everywhere together. Just to hear him talk about his philosophies on life and spirituality and family was so moving. I would say to him, when you do your next biography, it needs to be audio so people can hear the inflections in your voice, you know, how passionate you are. People have heard the messages, but I don’t think they’ve listened to the messages. Hopefully after seeing the film, audiences will accept the challenge of making some positive changes to the planet. That was his main reason for returning to the stage.
CG: Was Michael always trying to top himself?
Payne: Michael was always trying to add to his legacy. He wasn’t trying to reinvent the wheel. He would always say, “If it’s working, we don’t have to change it. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.” So, there were some things that were very sacred. You know, like “Billie Jean” and “Thriller.” You don’t want to change those. You just want to add to them. To present new layers to them. His music and his art continued to grow. People will see in this film how he regarded all of it. They weren’t just songs to him. You know, I often asked him,” What’s your favorite song?” And he would say, “I can’t choose one. They’re all my children. They’re all my favorites.”
CG: Was there an effort to include his brothers in the Jackson Five tribute section?
Payne: We had a short list of artists that we would have loved to have join Michael on stage. You know, it would have been a no-brainer to have his family there. I’d have loved nothing more than to see the brothers come out during the Jackson Five medley. I also would have loved nothing more than to see Janet come on stage to sing “Scream” live with him. When we did that short film in 1995, it was so wonderful because I’d gotten my start with Janet as a dancer on “Rhythm Nation” in 1990. So, to start with her and then work with Michael so extensively and then work again with Janet [on the recent MTV Video Music Awards tribute]…it was just so full circle. Before he passed, I was definitely thrilled about the possibility of including Janet because I think the fans would have loved that.
CG: Do you have any favorite “Michael” moments from your time working together?
Payne: In the dancer realm, I remember we would watch fashion shows together a lot. He loved the runway walk. That’s what inspired the girl in “The Way You Make Me Feel.” It’s why he worked with Naomi Campbell on “In the Closet” and Iman in “Remember the Time.” He loved fashion and aristocracy and haute couture. But in terms of a life moment, I really enjoyed meeting his children for the first time because Michael was a different man around them. He had different priorities. His life took on a different meaning. Just the joy they brought him…and he would get on the floor and play their games and chew bubble gum with them and have a good time. That was fun to see. And the children were always at home when we rehearsed together during the day. And they would come and sit in the studio and watch and Michael Jr. would get up and do his thing and Paris would sort of tend to the house. She was very aware of where everything was and kept the schedule for lunch. They just loved him and protected him so much. I think the fact that their Dad is not with them physically has got to be hard but hopefully they can get some sense of being with him again through this movie. I’m very anxious for them to see it and find out what they think about it.
CG: What is Michael Jackson’s legacy to the world of dance?
Payne: I think Michael Jackson created a language and style all his own. Like the greats who have come before him – Fosse, Baryshnikov – he contributed immense amounts to dance and I think he’ll continue to do so. You can see his spirit woven through a lot of the contemporary artists we see all the time, as well as people we have yet to see. I think he’d be happy about it. He took it as flattery. He enjoyed seeing people do the moves around the world because he knew it meant he was connecting with them.
MJPortal interview (November 14, 2009) (mirror)
Info: Worldwide famous choreographer Travis Payne, Michael Jackson's old friend and associate producer of the "Michael Jackson's - This Is It" film, has exclusively granted the following flash, though really intense, interview to MJPortal.com.
We deeply thank Travis for having found the time to fulfill our request, initially agreed for June 09, then postponed until some days ago.
Nick Bertovello (MJPortal): Well, I suppose that the first question that I'll ask is about you. When did you fall in love with "Dance" as an Art form and what prompted you to believe in the "power" of Dance?
Travis Payne: As a young child, I always moved a lot. I would move to the music my parents played. At 5 years old, I first saw Michael Jackson. I was instantly mesmerized by his dance and music. I listened to Michael and his brothers religiously before starting formal dance training at the age of 9. I studied ballet, jazz, tap, modern and gymnastics.
MJPortal: How did you and Michael end up together... or maybe I should ask how did it all begin between you and Michael?
Travis Payne: Every morning before going to middle school and during high school, I would watch Michael and Janet’s short films while I ate my breakfast cereal. I imagined myself on stage performing with both of them. I did this for years.
I attended the ‘Bad’ and ‘Rhythm Nation: 1814’ tours multiple times. I knew all the steps. My friends and I sent a videotape of me doing Janet Jackson’s Rhythm Nation Tour choreography to Janet. About one week later I was flying to Japan to meet her and join the tour.
After touring with Janet at 19, I auditioned for “Remember the Time” with Michael. This was the first time I worked with MJ. It was truly a dream-come true. After “Remember the Time”, I joined the Dangerous tour as a dancer. Once on the Dangerous tour, I became a choreography partner to Michael. We did the “American Music Awards” in 1993, the “MTV Awards” opening number in 1995. Next was the “HIStory Tour” and “Ghosts”. For ‘This Is It’, I was the associate director and choreographer of the tour and associate producer of the film.
MJPortal: Was your relationship with Michael purely work work work or is there a friendship somewhere in there also?
Travis Payne: In the beginning our relationship was only about the art and creating. Over the years, it grew into a very special friendship. Michael grew to trust me.
We didn’t always speak regularly in the beginning. That changed. During “This Is It”, we were always together creating the best show Michael, Kenny and I could.
MJPortal: How do you feel after Michael passed away?
Travis Payne: I feel numb and emotionally exhausted. I still can’t believe he is not going to call me with another new idea. I will really miss those calls.
MJPortal: From past experience we all know that Michael was a real perfectionist. What was the climate during rehearsals of the “This Is It” tour?
Travis Payne: The climate during “This Is It” was intense, but loving. We had a huge responsibility that continued to grow daily. Michael was very clear that he wanted to create the greatest show his fans and the world had ever seen.
There was never tension, but a constant awareness of the creativity and energy needed to realize Michael’s vision.
MJPortal: Have you noticed any changes in MJ from the time you met until now?
Travis Payne: Michael had matured in his art and awareness of his responsibility to the planet. Everything he stood for was based on love, peace, good will and joy.
He loved his fans, our planet and his family. He had always shared these ideals with the world through his music and art, but the world didn’t really hear him.
It was necessary for Michael to return to the stage to remind the world of our individual and collective responsibility to our planet. He was even more passionate about his messages this time. He’d say, “This Is It! We have to fix this mess!” All of the environmental tragedies and poverty that exist really affected Michael, more than people knew.
MJPortal: We know that the “This Is It” tour would have been the greatest show of all times. Which are the main differences with Michael's past concerts?
Payne: Michael was a father of 3 children this time around. His children were now old enough to appreciate what their dad loved so much: performing for his fans. Michael was young enough to do it again.
MJPortal: Was Michael really ready to face 50 concerts?
Payne: Michael was definitely ready to do the concerts. The 50 shows scheduled in London were spread out over 9 months. Michael would have been performing an average of 2 to 3 shows per week.
MJPortal: The selected dancers appeared very motivated and happy about their engagement. How did they react to MJ's death?
Payne: Everyone was devastated. We couldn’t be apart. We would meet in a different location for many days after Michael’s passing to be around each other for support.
MJPortal: What about the Dome Project, and how about all the uncompleted songs Michael Jackson wrote in the last decade? Will they see the light in a reasonable time?
Payne: The “Dome Project” was the codename for ‘This Is It’ during production. I hope Michael’s songs will be heard by the world, especially the new ideas I heard before he passed.
MJPortal: You've worked with some of the greats like Michael, Madonna, Janet and many more. Do you think that the future will give us some new pop music phenomena of this type or can we say that this era is coming to a close?
Payne: I think anything is possible. I do know that there will never be another Michael Jackson. He was an instrument of nature and a unique being.
MJPortal: What do the future generations have to look forward to?
Payne: Future generations have hard work to look forward to. With hard work comes glory. Michael has set the bar so high in all of entertainment, philanthropy and so loved humanity. Let us remember his spirit when dealing with each other. It’s not hard to love each other more. We’ve learned violent behavior just as we’ve learned to read in 2-d. 3-d is what’s natural.
MJPortal: Thousands of fans around the world believe Michael is still alive, and that his death is an hoax. What can you tell us about all the mysteries surrounding this argument?
Payne: I have heard this and don’t believe it. Michael would never take his children, family and fans through the drama of staging such a hoax. That’s not his style.
CYInterview, Chris Yandek interview article (February 5, 2011) (Full audio link available as well)
Payne got his big break as a dancer for Janet Jackon’s Rhythm Nation Tour. His career took off from there. He tells CYInterview he had always set out to do something of significance. His focus and drive are the reasons he has a track record of working with numerous marquee names.
“My mother will tell you if you ever meet her, this is one of her stories, but I would always say that I’m gonna work with Michael Jackson and Prince and Janet Jackson and Debbie Allen and Paula Abdul and I got to do that. It was really sort of just trusting in my instincts and being at the right place at the right time and being prepared for the opportunities when they came along, but having a focus. As I got older, I really came to understand more what that meant.
Payne’s currently starring, alongside Paula Abdul, on the CBS show Live to Dance. He says that he and Paula go back a long way and this is a project they were both ready to take on.
“Paula and I have known each other for many years. My very first audition in L.A. was for a Paula Abdul project in that I got to choreograph a few of her videos with her throughout the years. So I was very happy that this was gonna be like a full circle for us in our relationship in that we had both grown so much since first meeting and that it was really going to be the fruits of all of our hard work over the years independently that would make us a strong unit.”
Travis worked with Madonna on the Power of Goodbye video. The song was featured on the Material Girl’s Ray of Light Album. The game of chess is featured in the video. Payne says Madonna didn’t know how to play the game. The dancer first met Madonna in Mexico when her tour and Michael Jackson’s tour were taking place at the same time.
“She was very about the business, very to the point and very cordial in that working environment… She didn’t know how to play chess. It was a chess game in the video that we were creating and she didn’t know how to play chess or at least she said she didn’t and she wanted me to show her how to play chess. So I was showing her what I knew and it was pretty cool. We pulled it off. I had met her before in Mexico, but we never worked together. She was doing The Girlie Show and I was on tour with Michael for the Dangerous Tour. So all of the dancers would go back and forth to each other’s shows while we were there together that week and I met her first there at one of her concerts.”
Owing to Michael Jackson’s tragic passing, fans would never get to see his This Is It show. Payne tells us there were going to be many amazing surprises. Everyone from Diana Ross to Mariah Carey was going to sing and perform with Michael during the show’s run at the O2 Arena in London.
Travis confided to me after the interview that it was going to be the greatest show ever and there are many surprises that were planned that people still don’t know about.
Though still early in her career, Jackson had let Travis know that he wanted to even invite Lady Gaga to perform with him. Who knows what the performance would’ve been like, but it would have aligned, in some way, the King of Pop and the Poker Face singer.
“I was working on This Is It with Michael Jackson and we were creating a shortlist of artists we were gonna invite to appear with Michael on the show at several events and different occasions. After we had gotten to the end of the list, we had of course Janet and Diana Ross and Justin Timberlake and Usher and Missy Elliot and Teddy Riley, Celine Dion and Mariah Carey, Whitney Houston and a lot of people that he loved, artists. We got to the end of the list and I said, is there anybody else you add and he said, yeah. I said, who? Lady Gaga. I go really? He said, yeah, she’s cool and I said, ok.
At that time, I wasn’t familiar. I think Gaga had put out Poker Face. It was still early on at her success. And I said really? He said, yeah, she’s cool. You gotta get into her. And I said, ok. So that was really my sort of introduction to her. As you know, we wouldn’t get to do This Is It, but shortly after we completed all of the memorial services for Michael, I got a call from Lady Gaga. We had a discussion about her show and it just blew me away. I told her the story about how Michael had said that he wanted to invite her to sing with him in his show and of course she was so moved and humbled and then that’s how I met her. She just sort of called out of the blue. So I’d like to think Michael had everything to do with that.”
During his 16 year run working with Jackson, Travis felt spoiled because he says there was never anything creatively that couldn’t be tried. There were never any budget issues. Only a lack of time or something not yet having been created would prevent them from doing something they wanted to do.
“I had the wonderful pleasure of working with Michael for 16 years. First, as a dancer and ultimately as his associate director and producer as well as choreography partner for This Is It and everything that the project turned out to be and I’m forever grateful to him for all the opportunities throughout the years…Being able to create with Michael on such a high level where you don’t run into the normal issues with budgets or excess or not being able to realize a vision. The only thing that was the deterrent was time.”
I asked Travis when the last time he saw Michael Jackson was. “Was it shortly before the Gloved One’s passing?” Mr. Payne recalls the entire event like it was yesterday. He tells us they parted saying, “I love you” to each other.
“The last time I saw Michael was June 24th. The evening, we had finished rehearsal and we had completed the show, all the beats were there and we were waiting on a few sort of components that would be used for the set and things like that and we were just about to leave the following week for London for a series of rehearsals there before opening. The evening before his passing, I saw him and we had a rehearsal and he was leaving. Just in true Michael Jackson fashion, as he’s leaving, we pass each other and always it was just a regular occurrence. You pass him in the hall or you pass him walking and you say, ‘I love you.’
Most times he’ll say I love you first. That was the exchange, always. So we did that. I said, ok, see you tomorrow. He said, ok, see you at two o’clock and that was our time. We always met for This Is It and often times for other things. There was something about that time that was good and that was really it. Last thing he said to me was I love you. So I’m grateful for that and that was the last thing I said to him. So I’ll remember that forever as one of my sort of favorite moments that was the last thing we said to each other and we meant it.”
As someone who worked closely with Michael in the last months of his life, on rehearsals for the This Is It tour, Payne states there was nothing out of the ordinary about Michael’s health and that Jackson was busier than ever working with everybody to perfect the show. Many people wonder how the King of Pop was doing in those last months of his life. Travis says he’s still shocked that Michael passed away.
“Michael was certainly building himself back to what he would say was getting ready for his fight. He’d liken himself to a boxer. So we were training. He was working closely with his vocal coach, he was working closely with Kenny [Ortega] and I and the production team, realizing this, and the dancers, and his trainer, his nutritionist and he was doing all those things that he usually did. Nothing looked out of the ordinary to me. It was a different experience because he was a father, so his time was used differently this time, but there was a structure and that he had put in place for himself.
He created his own schedule and we facilitated and worked with him on every single minute that he was available and he was sort of just so happy about all of it. He was happiest when he was creating. So it was so surprising to me that there was anything a matter with his health. He had passed every physical. He was working. He was showing up. He was doing his thing…It was an on going sort of a task to put this show together and he was at the helm of it all. So I just when so shocked like the rest of the world when he died. I still am in shock.”
Travis Payne told me he has not been called on to be a witness, testify or provide information for Dr. Conrad Murray’s trial. As for his future, Travis is hoping for it to be creative, productive and fulfilling. He is definitely a dream achiever.
“Michael was very hard to impress,” says This Is It choreographer Travis Payne, who was blown away by the singer’s fluid dancing abilities despite his age, the same moves which revolutionized music videos in the early ‘80s. “He felt his dancing equaled to words . . . and he had to use the right words. That was a big deal to him. I’d show him something I’d think was amazing and he would say, ‘Okay, I see where you are going, but we should do this to it or try it like this or take away the leg part.’ He was always in control.”
Chris Cadman’s “Michael Jackson the Maestro”
Speaking to movies online shortly after Michael passed away, Payne talked about a new section in the show he’d rehearsed for THIS IS IT.
“I loved them all. The first thing I ever choreographed with Michael was Dangerous in 1993 but the latest was Drill. The Drill. It’s an entirely new piece that he’s never done before – all new original choreography that we did together, new music that hadn’t been performed before, and that was the piece that’s just between Jam and They Don’t Care About Us. I was very excited about that because it’s one of the newer ones that now the fans hopefully get to enjoy.”