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Stephen Rosen Interview

(Behind the Scenes + Interview Transcript)

 

Michael Jackson, Stephen Rosen interview transcript

Steven: Destiny was a little bit different than Triumph for the band, in terms of producing it all themselves, writing it for themselves than the last one, than Triumph?.

Janet: Was Destiny a little bit different for you guys because you produced the album and wrote the songs?

Michael: Well, we did also on Destiny.

Steven: The whole thing?

Michael: Sure. I think the difference is in progress and learning. I think each album you get better. But we wrote all the songs on Destiny except for one song, “Blame it on the Boogie.” With Triumph, I think we accomplished a lot of different things we’ve learned since Destiny. Destiny was the beginning and Triumph is like what we’ve accomplished since then. We have more freedom and we’re doing more arrangement. Trying different creative things, different sounds, all kinds of things like that now.

Steven: You feel you’ve progressed beyond the period when you were being produced by Gamble/Huff. Did you want the control of producing yourselves? Do you think they did a good job of producing the Jacksons?

Janet: Did you feel that Gamble and Huff did a good job with the Jacksons?

Michael: Well, yes, but I attribute a lot of that to the Motown days too because I feel Motown was a great school. You had some of the greatest writers in the world: Holland-Dozier-Holland; Hal Davis; the Corporation which involved ‘Fonz [Alphonzo] Mizell, Deke Richards and Barry Gordy [also Freddie Perren.] I think everybody learned from Motown; even the Beatles in their interviews they acknowledged Motown. The Tamla” Motown” days they called it. That influenced them to write some of their songs. But I see all of that as a whole and from that learning experience is what we’re doing now. We grew from that.

Steven: Did you just outgrow Motown musically?

Tito: Well it gets more involved than just a career.

Steven: Business?

Tito: There’s a business side to everything. But commenting on what Michael said with those old Martha Reeves songs and the Temptations and Surpreme songs, there’s not too many records that you could still play on your turntable today that still sound like hits. And those records still sound like hits today.

Michael: Plus it’s all about growing. I mean, you ask why would we want to leave Motown? We want to try different things; we want to grow. It’s like the caterpillar must come out of the cocoon and be a butterfly. We have to try different things and grow and become all those different colors and elements and things like that. We’ve always wanted to write on Motown but it was never in our contract. And we could have changed our contract at Motown. But I don’t think people had confidence in us; they didn’t believe in us. They say, ”Oh, you guys just kids. Just go behind the mike.” And we’d sing. But it was good. They were hits and as long as they were hits, fine.

Tito: It’s working now.

Michael: Yeah, it’s working now. [laughs] I bet they wish they had of listened!

Steven: Can you tell that you’re getting better as musicians and songwriters? Can you look back at any of those songs and see how they might have been improved?

Tito: Well, the old songs were hits then and I don’t know about doin’ ‘em better. You really can’t say because that was a learning experience for us at that time. And now is the results. I wish we had a chance to express ourself back then.

Steven: Can you talk about how a Jacksons song gets recorded? Does somebody come in with a finished song or do you toss around vocal and melody ideas? How does it happen?

Tito: We write separately and also we write collectively. And we all just take our product, put it in one pot and listen. We have listening sessions and that’s mainly how it starts.

Michael: They come about different ways all the time. Like Tito was playing a track for me at his house one day and I said, “God, I like that.” And from that I thought of a good melody for it and it was on the album. I don’t think any writer sits down at the piano and says, “I’m gonna write a song right now.”

Tito: It’s gonna be number one.

Michael: Yeah, you can’t do that. They come. They write you. They become you. I don’t think Michelangelo or Leonardo da Vinci would go to the canvas and say, “I’m gonna create the Mona Lisa right now!” Or whatever. It just comes and you just have to accept that. They work through you. You don’t choose them.

Steven: By the time you’ve entered the studio, are the songs set in terms of arrangements and who’s going to sing which part?

Janet: By the time you guys are in the studio, is it pretty set what the song is that you are gonna do?

Michael: Well, yes and no, really. It depends doesn’t it?

Tito: It depends. You can go in with one idea …

Michael: And it changes doesn’t it?

Tito: And one thing … the piano player might take the song somewhere and do a lick. You say, “Hey, everybody do that lick.”

Michael: Right.

Tito: So you never know. Or you may hear somethin’ while you’re listening back so it’s hard to say. I think one of the things to a hit song or whatever is a spare moment for things to happen. Unplanned things.

Michael: Yeah, spontaneous. You know, Norman Whitfield at Motown, he used to always do that. He’d throw a bunch of musicians in a room and he’d say, “Play.” And then from that he’d come up with a hit. That’s how he wrote “Papa Was a Rolling Stone” and a lot of those big hits back then. And then what would happen, he would get into trouble because all of the musicians would want residuals and percentage. They’d think, “You didn’t write this; we did.” He got in a lot of hot water doing that but a lot of songs come up the best way that way; you kind of play off of each other and feel it and just let it work itself.

Steven: As the main songwriter, do you play any instruments?

Janet: Do you play any instruments?

Steven: How do you compose?

Michael: Well, Jermaine and Tito, they play guitar and Randy plays a lot of instruments. I don’t really plan an instrument. I play drums.

Tito: You do plan an instrument.

Michael: Just a teensy weensy bit of piano.

Tito: He plays enough to write the hits.

Michael: I think I have the um, I think the mind is enough alone because I can hear what I want. I have a whole orchestra up here; a whole orchestra. And I hear it and I interpret it to musicians and they put it down. It’s like Stevie [Wonder], he doesn’t write music or read music nor does Paul McCartney and he still can’t today. You just feel it really.

Steven: Does it take long to record the final track? How much time is involved in recording the vocals and everything else?

Janet: Does the Jacksons’ vocal tracks take long to come up?

Michael: For our vocals?

Janet: Yeah.

Steven: Does it take hours and hours to cut a vocal?

Tito: It depends on the song. Some songs are easy; some songs you can sing’ em through once and some songs take two days.

Michael: Yeah. [laughs] It depends. Some songs I’ll have musicians to put it down and I find out that it’s the wrong key completely and I can’t reach certain notes. So we have to go all the way back. That’s when it’s stupid; you just get angry. I know everybody gets mad at me but you can’t do anything.

Tito: You can’t do anything about it; you have to do it over.

Michael: But what’s good about that also is when you do it again the song becomes better also. We get better takes. Did we do that with “Shake Your Body” or “Things I Do For You”? That’s what it was; on the Destiny album. It depends though; every song is different like he said.

Steven: Did you approach Off the Wall differently than a Jacksons group album?

Janet: Did you approach your solo record any differently than you did the Jacksons record?

[Michael is momentarily excited about a certain kind of lens the photographer is using.]

Michael: That’s neat, isn’t it? I’ve never seen one like that? Have you, Tito? That’s really great. What was your question? What was he saying? [this is addressed to Janet:]

Janet: Umm, I forgot.

Steven: Did you approach your record any different than you would a Jacksons record?

Michael: I guess. Yes, I do really because I don’t think they should sound alike. When people buy a Jacksons album, I think they should buy a group album. When they buy my album, I think it should have a different soloist type sound to it; a different type of sound completely. And when they come to the concert, I think they should hear like it’s two different acts. When they come to the concert they should have the attitude, “They are gonna see the Jacksons and a Michael Jackson concert because of my solo songs and the Jacksons’ hits and the Jackson Five.” So they’re seeing three groups really. [laughs]

Tito: And Jermaine.

Michael: Yeah, and if Jermaine travels with us which we hope he does, they’ll hear Jermaine. And Tito. That’s what’s good about doing solo work when they scream out what they want to hear and we say, “Alright, alright!” That’s real fun. But in the show we have a section where I do my solo stuff. I put on my tuxedo and get into it.

Tito: Funky tuxedo.

Michael: Funky tuxedo! Really.

Steven: Do you have any plans for any more solo records?

Janet: Do you have any plans for any more solo albums?

Michael: Well, I guess so because the public kind of demands once they enjoy something. And it was very successful but I wouldn’t do it soon. Not soon, no. ’82; 1982.

 

Stephen Rosen, interviewer, “Rock Cellar Magazine” (November 7, 2014) (archived)

In March 1981, I interviewed Michael Joseph Jackson.

He was just two years down the road from making Off the Wall, his first collaboration with producer Quincy Jones and the album that was the first step in a trajectory that would launch him from artist to icon. It was a remarkable record that showcased the young singer’s unbelievable range and versatility on songs like Don’t Stop ‘Til You Get Enough, Rock With You and She’s Out Of My Life.

Additionally, he was still performing with his brothers Tito, Jackie, Marlon and Randy as the Jacksons and had released Triumph about a year earlier.

When given the opportunity to speak with Michael, I jumped at the chance. Who wouldn’t? Even this early in his career, he rarely did interviews and I knew meeting and talking to the young performer would be something special. The interview was held at the Columbia Records offices in Century City, CA.

Century City was not so much a city as it was a community of high-rise business offices, expensive apartments, and high-end boutique stores.

Columbia Records was a stunningly modern building molded from glass and chrome and on this particular day was the location where a whole assortment of Jacksons were convened. I went to the Epic Records suite—Epic was a Columbia subsidiary and the Jacksons’ label— where the publicists had gathered a group of music journalists. They ushered us downstairs into a massive conference room and seated us at various tables arranged around the floor.

There were hard shell trap cases strewn about the wooden floor suggesting that the Jacksons had been rehearsing here.

After sitting by myself at a table for several minutes, the conference doors flew open and in marched Michael, Jermaine, Jackie, Randy, Tito and Janet. You have to understand that in 1981 Janet Jackson was only 15 years old. She had appeared in a sitcom called Good Times but her debut was still a year away when she would release her debut self-titled album. When she walked through that door with her older brothers, she looked more like some fan tagging along than she did a blood relative.

As the group walked in, various members were directed to certain tables where other music writers were waiting. To be honest, I wasn’t sure which Jackson was which. I couldn’t have told you the difference between Jermaine or Jackie but I knew what Michael Jackson looked like and I was silently hoping he’d be directed to my table. Sure enough, he was. I rose and shook his hand.

What struck me was his height. Michael was taller than I thought. Or not exactly tall but tallish. He was thin in the muscled and sinewy way dancers were. There was a genuinely sincere smile revealing bright, white teeth. His hair was short and not stylized. He wore a brownish, uniform-looking shirt with epaulet-styled patches on both shoulders, which bore three stripes and a crescent moon-looking design. Michael was rocking jeans, a simple belt and the black loafers he always wore.

Michael sat down at my table along with another brother . I said hello to Tito after he was introduced to me—thankfully I hadn’t addressed him as one of the other brothers—and was going to introduce myself to the young girl seated next to Michael but she simply sat down and ignored me. She hadn’t said a word. I tried to get her to look in my direction but she was fixated on Michael.

Remember, I had no idea who this person was and simply thought she was a friend of the band who was hanging out. To my surprise, chagrin and even horror, I’d soon realize otherwise.

My cassette player had been set up and was ready to go. I pushed the cheap, plastic microphone across the table so it was perched in front of Michael. Admittedly, my heart was beating overtime. There was more than a small case of nerves. This was Michael Jackson, the king of pop. I didn’t want to embarrass myself. Fighting through the terror, I presented my first question.

“Destiny was a little bit different than Triumph for the band in terms of producing and writing it by yourselves?” I asked.

As I’m talking, my eyes were focused on Michael. Establishing eye contact with an interviewee was important in conducting in-person interviews. You wanted to make sure your eyeballs were locked on the person sitting across the table from you. The simple ritual created a sense of intimacy and connected you on an emotional level. There was a non-verbal communication and a world of information could be expressed without uttering a word.

So imagine my horror when I found myself staring at the side of Michael’s head because he was looking directly at this young girl perched at his side. It was as if he hadn’t heard my question or if he had, it simply wasn’t registering. It threw me for a moment but I kept my poise.

What happened next was so bizarre, alien, uncomfortable and unreal that it’s hard to find the exact—or enough—words to describe the moment. While Michael was still turned and looking directly at this young teenage girl with black hair, she began speaking to him.

“Was Destiny a little bit different for you guys because you produced the album and wrote the songs?”

For a second, I wasn’t sure what I’d heard. Had she just paraphrased my question? Had I stumbled over my words so badly that he didn’t understand what I was saying? Three seconds later, Michael started talking but he wasn’t looking at me. He was still turned sideways.

“Well, we did also on Destiny,” he said. “I think the difference is in progress and learning. I think each album you get better. But we wrote all the songs on Destiny except for one song, Blame it on the Boogie. With Triumph, I think we accomplished a lot of different things we’ve learned since Destiny. Destiny was the beginning and Triumph is like what we’ve accomplished since then. We have more freedom and we’re doing more arrangement. Trying different creative things, different sounds, all kinds of things like that now.”

My brain was still processing what had just happened. While delivering his response to the question, Michael never looked at me. His eyes remained fixed on this girl and the effect was so unsettling as to leave me sitting there with my mouth agape. I did not exist. It was one of those moments where you say to yourself, “I cannot believe what I just saw. That didn’t just happen.” You don’t want to admit that what just occurred was real so you keep trying to deny it. It’s a defense mechanism to keep you from losing it or at least going temporarily insane. You find excuses for it.

Was he talking through her? Was she channeling the voice of Michael? Indeed, he spoke in such a high-pitched, delicate, breathy and feminine manner that he sounded exactly like Janet. Was this a game? A joke? A Jackson family tradition nobody was telling me about? Were Michael and Janet really one person?

Flustered, flummoxed and battling to retain control, I soldiered on. “You feel you’ve progressed a long way from Gamble-Huff?” I asked. “Was that a period for the Jacksons that you’ve since, uh, thought you just went beyond that and wanted to produce yourselves? Did you feel they did a good job with the Jacksons?”

I could feel my tongue cleaving to the roof of my mouth and my brain sticking to the top of my skull. I was stuttering over my words and my thoughts wouldn’t pour out any faster than thick molasses from a jug. I managed this second question and was hoping for the best but that wasn’t happening. Once again this tiny voice issued from the girl. “Did you feel that Gamble and Huff did a good job with the Jacksons?”

Now I was totally freaked out. What I initially thought may have been just some lighthearted interplay between interviewer and interviewee became a truly strange and surreal exchange. I kept looking at both of them to see if they might break into smiles and tell me I was on Candid Camera or something. But there was no camera, no aha moment and no answer.

Michael never looked at me and to this day I wonder if that’s what really happened. Was I manifesting this scenario because it would later make for a great story? It would but I wasn’t. I only had to play the recorded interview and hear in all its unguarded and unimaginably strange glory my comments being echoed by this adolescent girl—later learning it was Janet Jackson—and Michael’s disembodied voice responding to somebody that wasn’t me.

I always felt like Robert DeNiro in the classic scene from Taxi Driver where he stared into the mirror and asked, “You talking to me?” Certainly Michael hadn’t been.

In all honesty though, he was a very sweet and charming person. His comments were forthright and thoughtful albeit massively quirky and crazy in the way they were delivered. I didn’t think he was trying to belittle or embarrass me. Possibly it was just some weird ritual meant to make him feel more at ease amongst strangers.

Following the interview, he ventured off into a corner of the big room and began dancing. It was a marvel to watch him from such a close distance. Truly he walked on air and floated three inches above the floor. When I asked him for a picture, he graciously consented. Putting his arm around my shoulder, he beamed at the camera with a huge grin. It was hard to believe if he had been trying to make me feel small or mock me in any way that he would have agreed to taking his picture with me.

Looking at that photo today, I’d like to think his smile meant, “You were OK, Steve. I can’t explain to you why that happened but it did. I wasn’t trying to hurt you. I know what being hurt feels like. It’s who I am. I am a Jackson.”